Buddy Rich today!

[John Blackburn]

For me, the thing that continues to attract me to buddy and tony is their drive. Its a power thing...
I dont think its really about the chops though is it, its the attitude and the comitment. The same things that, I think, really set apart the great players from the good players in any era.

[Greaseleg]

I've always thought. aside from the obvious mastery he posessed, one of Buddy's biggest contributions was continuing what Krupa did in bringing drumming and drummers into mainstream America. His appearances on Carson and other talk/variety shows (Muppets among my fav's) helped shape the art of drumming as it was seen by "outsiders" in a way I think noone has or will ever duplicate.

And I also find it silly to have these mythical competitions between musicians who could give a sh#t less about competing with one another. Were they face-to-face, kit-to-kit, they would have a blast playing off one another and showing the other their due respect. Im sure Vinnie would pull of some insane five-let based metric modulation and Buddy would smile and throw back an insanely fast and clean snare drum passage, and anyone with a brain in their head would notice..."Wow, both of these guys are amazing in their own right. And they respect each other for what they are...two different drummers from two different eras, who both love drumming and do it their way."

And remember, this is my OPINION...its not right or wrong, its just what I think.

[S.P]

Thanks for clarifying john! haha got me a little excited there, btw...it was no only Weckl who called vinnie an animal, but Faith Hill in the special features of her dvd too...haha wonder what happened there

just kidding, but she is well hot!

[John Blackburn]

Faith Hill is extremely hot. Perhaps that would be a good topic: "Just how hot is Faith Hill?" Well, im not starting it.

[Manos]

That just begs the question:

If Marilyn Monroe were alive today, how hot would she be compared to other women?


[img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]wink.gif[/img]

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 12, 2005 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Manos ]</font>

[Schreck]

so, mr. matchgrip,

perhaps all is over now, but I have to answer some points,
still hopefull, that I understood 20 % of your post.

perhaps, you judge different, because there are other things important to you then to me.
you mentionend

=========================

"I'll just say, BR could never smoke the tune Against the Clock or that vid-clip
of the Potato 5-vamp like Vinnie, & he couldn't've nailed CCEB or CCAB-Alive discs
like Dave. But they did the two GRP BB AS's discs...AND were asked to do the BRMSC2,
by all involved, INCLUDING Kathy R [she evidently felt they were worthy of a BB
salute with Buddy's own band]..."

=========================

and I'am asking myself, WHAT is important for you ?
perhaps the technical aspect ?

and that's the reason, why I mentionend BIRDLAND.
because to me, he blew the song forward.
to me, it sounds better then the original.

and BR perhaps would find the important points, playing CCEB and co. even better ?

you mention later on the black page and zappa.
but his is really not a good example, because the technical aspects is to important,
to play zappa.
we are drummers and we like zappa.
but do you really think, that BR wanted to play THAT KIND OF - MUSIC ? - ?

I don't know, if you are very familiar with BR.
and I have to mention, that I'am NOT a fan of bigbanddrumming.
BUT his playing AT THE TOP during Westside story is just mindblowing.
he knew, where the big points are.

and I'am sure, that your following judegement is just WRONG.

=========================

"Buddy was very strictly rudimentally based, & he was indeed great at it;
snare, toms, & kick [similar to Boomer in fusion];
wheras VC & DW are a little more 3 & 4 dimensional with their applications,
& the phrasing is really far advanced, -based on their obvious BR
[as well as other greats] influence. [All JMHO. ;c)]"

=========================

listen to BR solos again, and then try to make me believe again,
that he is just rudimetally based.
what he is doing, is a firework of IDEAS.
you will never even understand BR, if you are not been fascinated
by his FIREWORKS of constant NEW ideas.
there is no solo like the other.
you will perhaps notice some parts, he repeated. but that's all.

he was not rudemantally based.
he was educated perfect in rudiments.
but that's not the point.
there must be a reason, that I'am get bored very quick by other drummers,
but not from listening to BR, because I still have not got his IDEAS.
you have to isten to BR from 1983, solo part two of westide story,
with his CRAZY fill between the toms with his right hand
and between his snare an the toms with the left hand.
it's not the TECHNIC.
you have to mention, the WHOLE situation.
you are wrong, just to mention the technic aspect.
you have to mention, how he built up this part,
how he integrated this part in the whole situation.

and perhaps DC is faster, yes, BUT the concept of BR' musicality was unbelieveable.
but DC is the nect to BR, if I notice the musical INSTINCT, I want to mention.
perhaps that's the reason, why they put as bonus tracks
on the buddy rich jazzlegends dvd the following drummers from the buddy rioch memorial concert.
Gregg Bisonette and Dennis Chambers.

and by the way. It's always interesting, to hear NO-DRUMMERS speaking about drumming.
to me it seams like, non-drumming-musicians have a better sense for musicality.

I have three examples of my near surroundings and these three musicians
are highly impressed by BR. but they know not to much about drumming. that's true.

and that's the point, I tried to mention.
BR drumming has to be seen as a musician.

and I'am asking myself, WHY the hell all the drummers,
you mention were HIGHLY impressed by buddy rich.
WHY ?
because of BR' singles or what ?

and I have a strange feeling by judging drummers, because I always mention as a drummer.
it happenend not to often by listening to music, that I forgot, to mention
the drummer as a drummer.

and I feel a little sorry, to COMPARE Shut up and play your guitar with westsidestory.
but his are really different universes.
the one is TECHNICAL music, the other is just MUSIC.
played for non-musician-people.

yes, and now some words to JoesMechanic.
you think, it's a good sign, if Chick forgot the one, yes ?
i think it's not a good sign.
he has to support.
it's not he point, that the drummer is the best,
who confuses the pianist the most.

and a last sentence to the LONGTIME MEMBERS.

to me, it sounds absurd too, that this longtime members always have to mention their own
tiredness by reading the stupid stuff of the newcomers and did nothing else,
then to repeat, VC is the best.

[PocketPlayer]

I'm looking for directions to the 405 S? Am I in the right place [img]graemlins/smarty.gif[/img]

[Henry II]

Schrek said:

"listen to BR solos again, and then try to make me believe again,
that he is just rudimetally based.
what he is doing, is a firework of IDEAS.
you will never even understand BR, if you are not been fascinated
by his FIREWORKS of constant NEW ideas.
there is no solo like the other.
you will perhaps notice some parts, he repeated. but that's all."

I think this is the crux of your post. Well said. And may I add that niether VC, DW, DC nor any other drummer, or any other musician for that matter, has achieved BR's level of artistry in that respect. Frankly, to me VC sounds rudimentally based by comparison to BR. JMHO.

[Manos]

What's the point of this thread? Is it to share opinions or debate who's better than whom?

If it's to argue who's better, then the thread has failed, because people are just spouting off what they think and believe, ignoring what others are saying. Nobody's opinion on this matter is going to be swayed. Everyone knew that coming into this, so what is the point, really?

If it's to share opinions, then why try and debate? I'm pretty sure everyone's opinion has been shared by now, because I'm seeing the same old post again and again.

It's been said before, and I'll say it again. Why can't you guys just listen to drummers for what they are and have to say without pitting them against each other? Listen to the MUSIC, not just the drumming. If Buddy was the best drummer ever, does that make his music and drum parts any greater than they already were? Or if Buddy happened to be surpassed, would it in any shape or form be detrimental to what he has produced? No. So this game of Rock'Em Sock'Em is futile and does nothing to further his or your cause. This thread should be closed.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ June 13, 2005 08:53 AM: Message edited by: Manos ]</font>

[Schreck]

hi manos,

BR became famous not only because of the music he played too,
but also because of his so-called "drumsolos".
so, in the case of BR, it makes sense to talk about his drumsolos too.
I always was very surprised, why his solos are fascinating myself so much.
When I watched his solos technicalwise, I only noticed his drumsfigures.
and I always thought, wow ! but why am I fascinated ?
what's the point ?
and so, I tried to figure out the musical context and THEN I noticed really,
what was going on during his performances.
Another poster, dazzler, noticed

=============================

Name me one recording where Buddy is playing complex metric modulations,
time over time and odd times over the barline. He didn't.

=============================

I noticed something else.
during the solos of BR, you even FORGOT where the barline was,
because of his enormous creative talent.
It's really like walk through a jungle to find out, where he was.
even his old performances contains already this fact.
but the development of the technical abilities wasn't grown enough,
to support his ideas.
that's perhaps the reason, why he played most of the time on the snare drum.
or think about the really fuc.. sound of the bass drum in those days
or the ugly sound of the cymbals.

you really think, dazzler, you could play all this things BR played,
without knowing instinctly
"complex metric modulations, time over time and odd times over the barline" ???

to me, manos, it's of course an interesting game,
to imagine, how BR of today maybe 30 years old would have played,
with the sound technologie of today.
and the "who's better question" is always a fact here, because the simple statement
VC is the best is just nothing else then a compare.